Can you turn a profit playing poker at the micro-limits?
This might surprise a lot of people but I do not think that you can or at the very least it is extremely difficult. I think there are many factors why this is the case.
The rake is big factor at the Micro Limits
For one, the rake is a factor in these games and micro-limit players pay the highest rakes on percentage of anyone on any poker site (I am sure there is an example somewhere this might not be the case but that would be rare). Said simply poker sites believe that micro limit players are the producers and the depositors, so they take as much as they can while the have you. Also they need to do this because most micro limit players also get substantial bonuses and they need to offset some of those costs.
First time players costs themselves value by not shopping around
Secondly, a good many micro limit poker players also take free money deals with no rakeback, we have sort of a hybrid model to that but if you are a site that gives free money it's particularly difficult to give both because almost everyone loses (trust me if anyone ever says to me "thanks for the free money deal but I would rather play with my own money if you can put me on rakeback now, that would be done in a second). Let's take Doyle's Room as an example the difference between someone getting 33% can keep them afloat. Rakeback also works well for depositors, if you have an account with $13 in it and you have a choice of where to deposit the answer should always be to deposit on the site you got the rakeback. We all know that people do not do that though for various reasons, software, blind levels, gold stakes, raise or fame programs. I was just talking to someone that wanted a transfer and I told him that he would have to wait as I do not transfer out of accounts that I am winning on, we are all superstitious but to be superstitious at the cost of benefits is silly in my opinion.
Morton's Theorem
Lastly and maybe most importantly micro limit players are awful, they are so bad you can not even remotely figure out what they are doing or calling with. Something that is particularly applicable to this idea is Morton's Theorem, back when Andy Morton was alive (he died in a motorcycle accident as I recall) limit poker was the game. The games he played in were very loose with a lot of players. The idea is basically when there are more players in a pot fewer people are making the wrong decision. Applied to No Limit games I think Morton's Theorem is given steroids, most micro limit players are not playing bad hands aggressively they are playing them passively hoping to hit whatever trash they have. Which is very difficult to read if you are playing mostly ABC poker. While Short Stack Strategy counters this a bit in SSS you are going to get the true odds in every hand you play because you have very little bluff equity.
Pretty depressing, huh?
Just surviving at the micro limits is a great accomplishment
In my opinion every poker player is in a race for survival, simply being able to play poker on a consistent basis without having to deposit like a funnel puts you way ahead of the game. If you would keep track over millions of hands you would see that there really are almost no winning players at micro limits. Part of that is obvious too, the winners move up. Which is why I am writing this, while it is important to move down when you are running bad it is probably more important to make sure you move up. You are in a race where almost no one wins but it is indeed possible to win. So that is the good news.
So what should you conclude from what I am saying? You should be trying to play with fewer opponents because that is where some of your edge lies. You also need to be playing at sites that give you good value, all three of our free money sites are great sites in this regard, once you graduate from free money to rakeback you will see that the value at both of these sites will help your profitability. To a certain extent our site kills the fun of poker because it makes you focus on the parts of poker that are yucky, like what you are doing wrong. When you were a losing poker player there was no pressure, I have people say this all the time after they go on tilt and go broke "I am hopeless, thanks for the opportunity but I am just not good enough". What they are really saying is "I like the idea of being a winner but frankly it's too much pressure". You know what, that is legit folks and I know it more than anyone though even if you are a depositing hobbyist you should still be looking for value (more value than a just a deposit bonus, most rakeback plans give you both, all of ours do at least). If you are not having fun playing poker you should not be doing it but I can tell you personally that winning is a lot of fun. While it is a difficult path it is worth it, you will just have to trust me on that.
Tags: micro limits morton's theorem
12 responses to Can you turn a profit playing poker at the micro-limits?
Thursday, March 11, 2010
I agree. I can crush .25/.50 - but I break even at .01/.02 (its pretty messed up).
Thursday, February 18, 2010
Arcticle is correct in my oppinion, but I agree with Presum3vil aswell, It is possible to stack the bad players, aslong as you play your good (aggresive) poker. because I honestly think it never is good to play slow on low limits. People will just call you with that 7-2 Off suit on a 2-X-X board. and they sometimes will hit their hands and get some money out of you, if you don't play aggresive enough.
Moving up in the limits is pretty much not the game your playing, it's having decent bankroll management, know when to quit, and know when to sit on the table untill your ass will hurt.
Wednesday, January 27, 2010
No, If people can't beat the micros it is because they are bad at poker. There is TONS of money to be made. The players there are bad, certainly, but to think they are so bad you can't beat them is just dumb. If you can't beat the micros........Move up to where they respect your raises.
Friday, January 22, 2010
It all comes down to being the guy who changes gears the best and can adjust to any table. We all get stuck in the habits of playing a particular style. Changing gears is essential. You will see it all at the micro limits. Just be ready for massive variance and ignorant plays. However you will pick up many easy big pots to counteract this. Play within your bankroll and put in the hours, it'll pay off when you step up to real limits live.
Thursday, January 21, 2010
Of course you can make a profit at the micro stakes. It just requires a totally different strategy than what you may be accustomed to.
Thursday, January 14, 2010
Sure, this guy is an exception because he plays 40+ tables simultaniously, but he made a significant profit playing the micro- & lowlimit sngs.
Here's the link to the 2+2 thread:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/54/poker-beats-brags-variance/turning-100-into-10000-15-days-lowlimit-only-417722/
Thursday, January 14, 2010
Not really, I think this applies for tournaments too. The big problem is that it just isn't enough to matter to a lot of people and so it gets treated with a manner of disrespect (meaning the bankroll). Ultimately Morton's Theorem also has it's applications in the early stages of a tournament too.
Thursday, January 14, 2010
Sounds like you're only referring to cash games, and as tournaments have no rake, a micro buy in +EF would still allow you to be a winning player, with the average rate of cashing in a tournament....
Wednesday, January 13, 2010
Good article and 100% true, it is depressing realizing that we have a hard time beating the micro, rake is a huge killer and there are a tons of awful players. There are in fact a few very good players that may or may not, make it out of the micro cycle.
Your site and your RB offers are a great start for us awful players to try and break that cycle. I'm sure most of us will fail, very few will make it to midstakes. It is however not totally impossible it can be done. It will take plenty of effort and or work to get there, which is a big factor why most do fail. They aren't willing to do the work. They aren't willing to review their own play. They aren't willing to talk to better players and take there valuable advice. They play without patience and want to get rich quick because they think the deserve it. Well you get out of it what you put in.
Those that do work hard and put in their time may survive to move up in limits. I certainly hope this site is a stepping stone for most of you. Will it be hard, most certainly, will you run bad you bet your ass. I value your insight regarding the micros but we do have to start somewhere. Without beating that dead horse in the beginning SSS is maybe the best shot to get you going period.
Wednesday, January 13, 2010
This subject cant be written or told more clear.You have absolute right in every sentence of it.
Wednesday, January 13, 2010
A very nice read.
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Thursday, March 11, 2010
I'm probably going to rewrite this article at some point. While most of what I say here is my opinion some of the intent of this article I didn't really nail down. Certainly micro limits can be beat. Many people do it all the time and then move up. Which is likely why you don't see many people with win rates very low.
I did have one guy taking me to task that Morton's Theorem doesn't apply since that is mostly a limit poker concept. Well in most micro limit games people buy in for the minimum and a lot of pots are limped. In my opinion that creates conditions similar to limit poker.
Most importantly I wanted people to feel that to struggle at micro limits is common and more people do it than don't do it. It sucks to lose and especially sucks to lose to players that are playing bad. That was a big part of what I was trying to say and that message didn't really come across all that well.